View Full Version : Utah Man Wants 'In God We Trust' In All Classrooms
sws4420
06-11-2007, 08:27 AM
SALT LAKE CITY - If Oak Norton gets his way every Utah classroom will soon display a poster bearing a simple, patriotic message: "In God We Trust.''
It's a sentiment Norton believes all children should feel.
"To me, our country's national survival depends on trusting in God,'' the Highland resident said.
Norton's efforts are supported by other parents and even some teachers and administrators. At Highland Elementary School, where Norton's daughter attends classes, the Parent-Teacher Association president and the school principal both praised Norton's distribution of posters at the end school year.
Highland Principal Reed Hodson wants the signs posted in each classroom next fall and says it won't be an option for teachers.
Norton's posters aren't welcomed by the American Atheists, however. Communications Director Dave Silverman said religion is "most divisive thing in the universe'' and shouldn't be introduced in schools, where everyone is supposed to be welcomed and involved.
But there might be little opponents can do to stop Norton, who also advertises the poster on a web site.
In 2002, the Utah Legislature quietly passed a law that requires every state school building to post the national motto, which is used on U.S. currency.
Rep. Jackie Biskupski, D-Salt Lake City, voted against the 2002 Utah law and said Norton's proposal could potentially isolate and victimize children by pointing out their differences.
"It's heartbreaking when you push something into a school that really will facilitate singling out students for targeting of discrimination and prejudice and very possibly bullying and physical harm,'' she said.
Utah is among a handful of states that require or allow the posting, according to the American Family Association, a Mississippi-based nonprofit that supports traditional family values. The association began a similar poster campaign in 2001 and has distributed 400,000 posters nationwide.
http://kutv.com/local/local_story_161183309.html
MedicCook
06-11-2007, 11:10 AM
patriotic message: "In God We Trust.''
This is not a patriotic phrase it is a religious phrase and violates the seperation of church and state.
trojanmiro
06-11-2007, 01:21 PM
i was kinda for this, since most citizens do believe in some god of some shape or form till i read this part.
"Norton's posters aren't welcomed by the American Atheists, however. Communications Director Dave Silverman said religion is "most divisive thing in the universe'' and shouldn't be introduced in schools, where everyone is supposed to be welcomed and involved. "
when you think about it, religion has caused alot of bloodshed and turmoil in the world. and i dont believe you have to be religious to be raised with morals and values.
sws4420
06-11-2007, 02:33 PM
No, but it helps.
Besides, 'God' is a general term. It's not a specific god.
Cutesunshine
06-11-2007, 03:20 PM
If you take god off of anything patriotic, everything this country was founded on is gone.
Our pledge changes, our money.
God is a meaning of someone to believe in who will guide us.
A goat can be your god.
sws4420
06-11-2007, 03:42 PM
:lamsey_wo
A lot of people seem hellbent on undoing everything that made this country what it is and I think it's sad. Fine, don't agree with religion, but that doesn't mean you have to fuck it up for everyone. Maybe I would have liked to say a prayer at school. If you wouldn't have liked it, I wouldn't have been offended. Everyone has the right to do their own thing. But by insisting that because something might offend one person that it can't be done at all, fuck off. How about the fact that all this stripping of everything religious is offending me and I want it back? How far will that get me? Answer: nowhere. Because people are so worried about offending someone else.
Religion hasn't caused the bloodshed. Greed has, and that's the basis of all the politician. The feel as though someone will be offended because of something, so they get greedy and take it away. You know something, the war in Iraq offends me, Why not take that away? Because you're greedy, and only want what you want, and not what everyone else wants.
MedicCook
06-11-2007, 04:11 PM
Actually this country was founded by people who left England because the church was too much into everything. I refused to say the pledge back in the 9th grade and I still refuse to say it because of the god reference.
Can you name the only religious group that pay's taxes in this country?
Actually this country was founded by people who left England because the church was too much into everything. I refused to say the pledge back in the 9th grade and I still refuse to say it because of the god reference.
Can you name the only religious group that pay's taxes in this country?
My ancestors were one of the first ones to leave. My blood line began in England. According to my mother, my family was very close to the king and queen.
Cutesunshine
06-11-2007, 04:23 PM
Why cant you leave out the god part instead of not saying it?
MedicCook
06-11-2007, 04:35 PM
Why does religion have to be forced onto me? And it is not true that 'In God We Trust' means any religion that you believe in. There is a certain religion that it applies to and that is it.
Why does religion have to be forced onto me? And it is not true that 'In God We Trust' means any religion that you believe in. There is a certain religion that it applies to and that is it.
Satanism is a Religion. Change it to " In Satan I trust"
MedicCook
06-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Satanism is a Religion. Change it to " In Satan I trust"
Yes it is and if that was what it said people would be burning everythign down.
By the way the Church of Satan is the only recognized religion in the United Sates that is not tax exempt. They quailify for it and refuse to use it.
They feel that if you want to have the ability to make changes and voice your ideas especially political that you pay your admission price. Until churches are willing to pay taxes and not hide behind political BS then they should not have the right to bitch or complain. The church is the biggest money scam every invented.
Cutesunshine
06-12-2007, 05:10 AM
I am not 100% behind any organized religion. I used to be very much involved. Each religion is different as is each church and parish. Not all parishes are about taking money and not giving back... because some really do. It depends who is in charge of each parish, and church. The past priest in ravena was a money hungry fag... The new one I hear is out in the community doing all sorts of events. Even attended a motor cycle rally at the bar across the street to help raise money for something or another.
I went through a huge spell that I was unsure of gods exsistance. I still went to church and my mind drobbled around the entire time I was there. But I also experienced a life changing event that helped me believe again. And maybe someday you'll feel differently... I hope that it doesnt take an enormous tragedy to help you see that having a figure to look to for hope during a really hard time in your life isn't a bad thing. It doesnt HAVE to be the god Catholics or baptists or protestants or methodists pray to. But someone.
MedicCook
06-12-2007, 07:59 AM
And I am not against other people wanting or needing to have religion in their lives. I am against the government inserting and pushing religion into the public domain. If you want religion in schools then go to a religious private school. Public schools should have no favortism to any one religion. By putting 'In God We Trust" in the classroom you are violating the constitution.
sws4420
06-12-2007, 08:05 AM
I don't see it as pushing, I see it as allowing. Separation of church and state was meant to prevent churches from running the government.
Cutesunshine
06-12-2007, 08:30 AM
I think every child should take a semester of religion where it touches the different types of religion. A child isn't going to know something they were never taught.
trojanmiro
06-12-2007, 10:30 AM
I think every child should take a semester of religion where it touches the different types of religion. A child isn't going to know something they were never taught.
having it unbiasedly taught though is the tricky part.
i disagree with the posters. the entire issue in general im on the fence about. regardless of prayer allowed in school or not, people who are religious usually send their child to church school anyways. i believe its part of the process to get your first communion. i could be wrong on that though because i was never even baptised. i do find religion to be interesting though. i watch all sorts of documentaries and read articles and such. i think having a knowledge of it is just part of studying and knowing history in general. i personally dont believe in it, and i consider myself a well rounded person. if someone is religious and wants to believe in a god or their god or whatever, all the power to them. i just dont feel its right to be thrown in someones face who doesnt believe. as far as removing it from the pledge, and currency and such, im not for that. thats part of history and should remain as such.
Don't forget that when schools first opened up in this country that they were all religious school. School is about preparing the children for the future. Sure If I ever have a child, I can send them to a private school, or a religious school, IF I CAN AFFORD IT. Why should anyone be punished regardless of their social or economic status because they do or do not believe in "A GOD" How can "IN GOD WE TRUST" violate the constitution, if that's what it was built on in the first place?
The right to bear arms? If you have a concealed weapons permit, you should be able to bring the gun to school without fear on repercussion. The right to free speech? I should be able to go into a school and tell a teacher to go fuck themselves without that same fear.
Instead, we are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for bringing guns into school, and kids are kicked out for harassing teachers, because in society today, people are taught good things, and bad things. Bring a gun to school in the year 1550 meant you were hunting for dinner on the way home, and swearing at a teacher got you a spanking. Everyone is afraid in this world. Don't pick on "John" He talks to god, and he prays.
In Social Studies we're basically taught about religion. Taoism, Judaism, Buddhism, Catholicism, Protestants, and so on, and so on. Religion is taught in our schools. It's all on how you take things in.
trojanmiro
06-12-2007, 01:41 PM
Don't forget that when schools first opened up in this country that they were all religious school. School is about preparing the children for the future. Sure If I ever have a child, I can send them to a private school, or a religious school, IF I CAN AFFORD IT. Why should anyone be punished regardless of their social or economic status because they do or do not believe in "A GOD" How can "IN GOD WE TRUST" violate the constitution, if that's what it was built on in the first place?
times change. schools were first established by the towns back then. and basically each town consited of their own religion. there was protestent towns, catholic towns, baptist tows and so on and so forth. in time as people became more diverse, different churches pop up where it was acceptable to have more then one church in each town. times have changed and the rules of the 1400's no longer work in the year 2007. i know private school is expensive but i dont believe church school is, since you only go for about an hour or 2 once a week. religion is a personal belief. why should my public taxes be used to educate on your particular belief.
and as far as your hunting comment, again times change. yes if you brought a gun into school it was assumed you were hunting after. but i dont believe much hunting is going to be done in nyc, la, houston or cities of that nature. different times call for different measures.
Cutesunshine
06-12-2007, 01:56 PM
Its called Sunday school, and yes... Its free or very low costs for most parish's. In the catholic religion you take a year or so of classes to get your communion... then more to make your confirmation. Its a big deal (and I have to get dom going haha)
when we were in school, jewish holidays werent days off for everyone... now they are. If we're going to take religion completely out of school, all of those days off should be required to go in, unless you are baptized that religion and have proof of it.
I mean, everything can change given time.
sws4420
06-12-2007, 02:30 PM
I don't like that they have all of the Jewish holidays off. What's the percentage of Jews in the US?
Answer: 2%.
trojanmiro
06-12-2007, 03:28 PM
when we were in school, jewish holidays werent days off for everyone... now they are. If we're going to take religion completely out of school, all of those days off should be required to go in, unless you are baptized that religion and have proof of it.
I mean, everything can change given time.
i agree, even though i woulda never had a day off, lol. but the problem is kids dont rationalize like that. they get all pissy and moany when certain kids have the day off and they dont, and alot of parents unfortunately speak up on their behalf.
Cutesunshine
06-12-2007, 03:53 PM
I never really minded. I graduated with 2 jews. They didnt come on those days, and we all did. Didnt much matter to me.
But its pissy parents who created the world we live in today. A buncha liberals who need to always get their way.
I agree religion shouldn't have much say on politics... But its a way of life, and good portion of people's lifes. It created the morals that most of us have.
But Eve is a bitch for biting that apple.
HLBiteME!
06-12-2007, 04:07 PM
As a teacher, I think one of the biggest things students are lacking is some sort of religious upbringing. And really, the school can't teach it. That has to happen at home. I would be for having a silent moment at the start of the school day where students could pray to whatever god they see fit, or if they don't believe in god, just take the minute to clear their head, and prepare for the day. That's ok, because you aren't telling the student which church to support, which is what separation in church and state means to me. I'm indifferent to "In God we trust" being in the classroom. Students will either believe in it or not, and I can't imagine anyones opinion being swayed by having that hanging up in the room, or not have it hanging up in the room.
sws4420
06-12-2007, 06:13 PM
You're a teacher? Awesome.
trojanmiro
06-12-2007, 06:30 PM
As a teacher, I think one of the biggest things students are lacking is some sort of religious upbringing.
this is the type of thing that kinda irks me the most when i hear it. i think children relate to things more that they can see and touch. to me, whats lacking is parental involvement, not religion. you have a generation now of children growing up in broken homes, split families or single parents. i dont believe grade school kids have the mental capacity to have that kinda commitment to faith. to me the ten commandments arent really that religious, they are more common sense, courtesy and respect. the parents are the ones that are responsible for bringing up their kids with moral fiber, not god. religiong does teach right and wrong, but i believe any parent is capable of, and should be teaching their children that. if the only education on morals the children receive is at church, then their parents are doing them a huge injustice. if parents got involved in their childrens lives and stopped using the tv and video games as a form of babysitting then things would be different. if society was not selfish enough where people understood and respected their responsibility and commitments they made to participate as being a family, then this problem would not be as bad.
i agree, even though i woulda never had a day off, lol. but the problem is kids dont rationalize like that. they get all pissy and moany when certain kids have the day off and they dont, and alot of parents unfortunately speak up on their behalf.
We're lucky here in NY, Kids get a ton of time off from school here. In other states like Maryland there's kids that go to school every day of the year. They get one or two days off here or there.
Cutesunshine
06-12-2007, 06:55 PM
I actually was a ton different when I was young and had a stronger faith in god. If they're taught religion and stuff right from the beginning, they're beliefs are huge. I strongly believed in everything the lord taught me until I had a falling out with our priest and started rebelling in general.
Kids are going to become who and what they are on their own. God and parents hand in hand is what guides them to make good, or poor choices.
HLBiteME!
06-12-2007, 07:10 PM
I can agree that growing up with a core set of non religious values can be just as advantageous to getting a good start in life as religious ones. The only reason I said religion is because this seems to be a thread about that, and because the religion I'm currently looking at has parental involvement as one of the key tennents of it. But like I said, I really don't care what particular religion other people pick, or whether they don't pick a religion and all and just make sure the kids have good values that are not religious, doesn't make a difference to me up in front of the room. Like I said, if the schools had 30 seconds for a silent prayer, and you just wanted to use that time to clear your head, remember what you have to get done that day, and prepare for it, I think that would be just as worthwhile as saying a quick prayer.
sws4420
06-12-2007, 07:21 PM
I don't believe kids need to 100% fully be devout religious at young ages, but the lessons in the Bible give kids something to build a strong moral base upon.
MedicCook
06-12-2007, 08:54 PM
Here is the thing. If you want your children to have a religious up bringing no matter what religion you choose you can do it at home and at your church. You do not need to be inserting religion into the public school system. If you do not have the time to teach your kids your faith on your own time that is your problem, don't dump that onto the teachers of public schools shoulders. You want your kids to beleive in a god, get off your ass and be a parent and teach them about it.
So take Social Studies, Math, English, French, Spanish, Latin, and Science out of all the schools, and teach them everything else.
MedicCook
06-12-2007, 10:44 PM
So take Social Studies, Math, English, French, Spanish, Latin, and Science out of all the schools, and teach them everything else.
Yeah, all those useless classes. :laugh:
Cutesunshine
06-13-2007, 01:13 AM
I think a child should be know what's out there to choose from. You didnt just stumble upon satanism and think, alright, this ones cool. I'm sure you did your research.
If kids were taught the differences in each religion, that would make them more open, not closed minded against people of other religious origins... Might stop the whole "they offended me " thing. People fear the unknown which is why people are ostracized in the world.
My kids are baptized catholic... we celebrate our holidays based on their actual meanings... Not just the commercialized reasons. But I would sign a slip for them to get to know what each different religion is about so that they're more open. Maybe something else is more suitable for them. As heartbreaking as it would be for me... I'd accept it because they'd have knowledge about it.
I cant teach my children about judiaism, islam, protestant, or even methodist, jehova, or any thing other than what I was taught... Someone should have the ability to teach them those things. Its what I pay taxes for.
sws4420
06-13-2007, 04:36 AM
I'm not talking about putting religion into school, I'm talking about allowing it. For the most part, most people believe in some god. "In God We Trust" refers to a general god, not Yahweh, Buddha, Shiva, etc. Most religions have similar morals anyway, so it's not huge swings in logic from religion to religion.
MedicCook
06-13-2007, 07:51 AM
I think a child should be know what's out there to choose from. You didnt just stumble upon satanism and think, alright, this ones cool. I'm sure you did your research.
If kids were taught the differences in each religion, that would make them more open, not closed minded against people of other religious origins... Might stop the whole "they offended me " thing. People fear the unknown which is why people are ostracized in the world.
My kids are baptized catholic... we celebrate our holidays based on their actual meanings... Not just the commercialized reasons. But I would sign a slip for them to get to know what each different religion is about so that they're more open. Maybe something else is more suitable for them. As heartbreaking as it would be for me... I'd accept it because they'd have knowledge about it.
I cant teach my children about judiaism, islam, protestant, or even methodist, jehova, or any thing other than what I was taught... Someone should have the ability to teach them those things. Its what I pay taxes for.
The problem is that a school could not touch on all the religions. What would the catholic church do if a school touched on the actual Church of Satan? They would go insaine and it would be a huge media issue. Since there is no way that a school could fairly go ever each religion equally and without any prejudices then it is not worth it. Do it at home or at church.
I'm not talking about putting religion into school, I'm talking about allowing it. For the most part, most people believe in some god. "In God We Trust" refers to a general god, not Yahweh, Buddha, Shiva, etc. Most religions have similar morals anyway, so it's not huge swings in logic from religion to religion.
I have no problem with kids praying at school, but the school should not be devoting certain periods of time during the day to pray. If a kid wants to say a prayer to him/herself before they eat lunch that is fine. But if the public school say's ok kids for the next 5 minutes we want to pray to whatever god you believe in. I have a problem with that. The school has now just brought religion into the school system.
if the public school say's ok kids for the next 5 minutes we want to pray to whatever god you believe in. I have a problem with that. The school has now just brought religion into the school system.
They have not now just brought religion into school. It's been there for years. Most people just fail to recognize it.
sws4420
06-13-2007, 08:09 AM
The problem is that a school could not touch on all the religions. What would the catholic church do if a school touched on the actual Church of Satan? They would go insaine and it would be a huge media issue. Since there is no way that a school could fairly go ever each religion equally and without any prejudices then it is not worth it. Do it at home or at church.
I have no problem with kids praying at school, but the school should not be devoting certain periods of time during the day to pray. If a kid wants to say a prayer to him/herself before they eat lunch that is fine. But if the public school say's ok kids for the next 5 minutes we want to pray to whatever god you believe in. I have a problem with that. The school has now just brought religion into the school system.The issue at hand isn't teaching religion in school, it's allowing "In God We Trust" in schools. Nobody is trying to get public schools to push religion on any child. That's a case where the parent should send the kid to a public school.
As far as allowing Satanism to be taught in schools, that'll never happen even if all other religions are allowed to be taught. It's comparable to Scientology in that it's an infant religion. Countries have been built around religions based on religions that have a much larger following. Wars have been fought in their name, which may have been complete bullshit, but that's neither here nor there. A forty-year-old religion will never be prominent in any of our lifetimes. That goes the same for Scientology, even though I see that 'religion' as just a bunch of gobbledy gook. But this discussion is meant for another thread.
They have not now just brought religion into school. It's been there for year. Most people just fail to recognize it.As much as anyone may be against any religion for whatever reason, they have the advantage of providing moral building blocks for children and even adults. I wasn't raised with religion and looking back, I think I could have used it to help steer me to adulthood. I have my morals in pretty good order, I think, but I think using religion as a tool, I could have made the journey a little easier and more clearcut.
trojanmiro
06-13-2007, 08:55 AM
to me, its a "to each their own" issue. the thing that scares me about religion, is they all have their verions of fundamentalist and extremeist. and thats when religion takes a turn to teaching ignorance and biased ways. its such a touchy subject that i dont believe it is appropriate in public schools for the amount of debate it fuels.
Cutesunshine
06-13-2007, 10:19 AM
It fuels debates because people are focused on one thing... catholics=money hungry
Islams=terrorism
mormons=polygamy
Each religion has a stereotype attached to it... which is why we should educate our children
Why does it have to be biased?
Have a rabbi come and teach about the jews, have a priest or deacon come teach about catholicism, have a pastor come speak on protestant, baptists and methodists.
If you're sending you child to a religious school, chances are its only going to focus on THAT particular religion. Now thats biased.
trojanmiro
06-13-2007, 10:56 AM
im not saying religion in general is biased. in its true form each religion is peaceful and compassionate. its the extremist of each religion that create biased teachings and opinions. and you have them in each religion.
MedicCook
06-13-2007, 01:25 PM
Again, if you want your children to learn about religion you should be doing it on your time as a parent not taking time away during the school day. If you want your kid to learn about all the religions and you are catholic, I bet you can go to a jewish temple and they will be more than happy to speak with you and your child about their faith and that goes for all the religions. This does not need to be done in the public school.
By putting 'In God We Trust' in every classroom you have now just given the churches a huge foot into the door to do more religious based activities and teachings into the public school system.
sws4420
06-13-2007, 01:48 PM
By putting 'In God We Trust' in every classroom you have now just given the churches a huge foot into the door to do more religious based activities and teachings into the public school system.Bullshit. They have no business holding functions or classes in the schools during designated classroom time. It allows children to not be required to leave a piece of themselves at the door during what amounts to their job as children. It amounts to me requiring you to not bring your red hair to my house if you want to visit my house. But it's ok, you can have youre red hair back when you're done.
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