Morman is excommunicated over shirtless calendar

[MedicCook]

Shirtless calendar’s creator excommunicated
'I felt like I spoke my truth,' the now ex-Mormon says of his idea

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/ap/fdf9731d-4662-4a2d-9359-5da13d011c97.h2.jpg

SALT LAKE CITY - The creator of a calendar that featured shirtless Mormon missionaries was excommunicated Sunday after a disciplinary meeting with local church leaders in Las Vegas.

Chad Hardy said he bears no ill will toward the council of elders from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"I felt like I spoke my truth," the 31-year-old entertainment entrepreneur said. "Bottom-line, they still felt the calendar is inappropriate and not the image that the church wants to have."

"Men on a Mission," which has sold nearly 10,000 copies at $14.99 each, included pictures of 12 returned missionaries wearing black slacks, but not their trademark white shirts, in modest poses. The men also were photographed in traditional missionary garb and share their religious beliefs in biographical sketches.

Some of the 12 models have also been called to disciplinary meetings, but none were punished.

"I have no ill feelings toward any of those people," Hardy said of the church council. "They did what they believed was right and I really do feel it was the best decision for both of us."

Frank E. Davie, the senior leader over a group of Mormon congregations in the Las Vegas area, confirmed the 12-member council's decision in a telephone call to The Associated Press. He declined further comment.

Hardy said the purpose of the 2008 calendar was not to tear down the church or its 13 million members.

"The project is about stepping outside the stereotypes and stepping outside of the image," Hardy said. "Not everybody fits the image and I let them know we're not trying to portray an image for the entire church."

An excommunicated person is removed from official church rolls, but are still welcome at church services. Excommunicated members are prohibited from receiving the sacrament and can't perform church callings such as teaching or preaching during meetings. They also cannot enter church temples.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25667782/?GT1=43001

[Thomas the Solitary]

:gayalarm:

[MedicCook]

I would like to know what HL thinks about this and if this is something that has been discussed.

[HLBiteME!]

I'm not really sure what I think about this. I've only been a member for a little while. I've gotten to know some of the missionaries pretty well, and consider some of them good friends. There's a lot about the church that I'm not so sure about, but I do feel like the missionary program is excellent, and almost all of those who serve missions have a very positive experience. I've also heard that when these young adults return from their mission, many remain very religious, and their mission often serves as a starting point for the rest of their life. Some of the older members that I am friends with will often talk about their mission, even if they were decades old. Then some who return, very quickly fall away from the church, and go kinda wild for a while, before maybe coming back.

I've not heard anything about this besides the article. No one mentioned it at church this last week, nor have any of my Mormon friends weighed in on it.

Missionaries live a very strict lifestyle while serving on their mission. Their clothing choices are very restricted, and they constantly have their companion with them. Male missionaries are not allowed to enter a house if only a female is home. Same thing for the girls. When they stop by my house, they cannot come inside if I am the only one home. A few months ago, the local guy missionaries needed to visit the girl missionaries, and my wife and I had to go over to chaperone the meeting. Even though the rules have them wearing very modest clothes, these are young adults in their early 20's, some late teens. A lot of the ladies think the guys look very handsome in their outfit, and I think a lot of the female missionaries we've had have been very attractive as well. I've no doubt that a few of them get people to talk to them just because of their looks. Any sort of flirting is not allowed of course, but people can have some pretty tight bonds with certain missionaries, especially the ones who convert them. In my church, there is at least one married couple where the guy was serving his mission, worked with one lady, she converted, and sometime after the mission, they got married. Every 6 weeks, missionaries can rotate, but some can serve in one area for a half a year or so. But if they think there is anything inappropriate going on, the missionary will be moved more quickly. And if the missionary breaks any of the rules, they can be sent home. This happened after their missions were over, so they can't be sent home, but the church really does not want the general public thinking of the missionaries as anything other than honorable.

Also, I'm not possitive, but I don't think being excommunicated has to be permenant. Like the article stated, the person is still allowed at church. They cannot participate in sacrement, which is a more symbolic ritual than in a Catholic mass, which is what I was before converting. But I believe that if the person sticks around, demonstrates good conduct, the bishop can eventually make the decision to have the person "Start over" get baptized again, and regain a lot of the titles and path they were on before. People can be excummuncated for a number of things, and because churches are usually pretty small and tight knit, poor behavior doesn't usually go unnoticed as much as a church that you might go to for one hour a week, and never talk to anyone from it the rest of the week.

[HLBiteME!]

I asked my wife for her opinion on this, and she thought it was inappropriate because it created the image that it was sanctioned by the church since they were essentially half in their work uniform. I also talked to a friend of mine who is a little bit older than me, and a lifelong member of the church, and has served a mission himself, and he basically felt like the person who made the calander was an idiot, who used exceptionally poor judgement, but that the punishment recieved was appropriate.

[MedicCook]

Thank you for your imput. It is nice having so many different backgrounds here to hear different perspectives.

[HLBiteME!]

I did also confirm that excommunication is not the end of the road. Like the article said, they are unable to go to the Temples, which is where the most holy ordinances take place. They lose their title, their job within the church. My friend says that more than half of the excummunicated members eventually make it back. After several months or even years of demonstrating good behavior, and repentance, they can basically start the process of becoming a Mormon from scratch again, as if they were a convert. Then they would have to advance through the rankings and ordinances all over again.

[MedicCook]

So I guess it is a little more difficult to get forgiveness as a Mormon as compared to a Roman Catholic having to say a few Hail Mary's and the slate is clean.

[HLBiteME!]

It depends on what you do really. When I was a Roman Catholic, I never really did like confession. I never felt like I very well articulated what I wanted to say. It was all so scripted. People ask me how I can stand to go for church for three hours, but it's really three unique hours, where you get to talk, and it's always something different every week. Probally 75% of the Catholic mass is the same every week. Though their churches are more ornate and better decorated, and while some of the Mormon hymns are growing on me, I think I still like the music better at Catholic mass. We don't have formal confession here. You can always talk to the Bishop, or other high ranking members, and in the cases where your misdeeds were public, you are going to have to speak to them, but confession is more of a personal thing. Actually, I found out today that most excommunications are due to some sort of sexual misconduct. Like if a missionary has sex on their mission. But the most common is if someone cheats on their spouse. We have a church sponsored wedding cerimony called a sealing. In a traditional wedding, they say "Till death do us part" but the Mormons have a tradition where you can get permenantly bound to your wife and kids, even after death. My wifes parents got sealed. And then they got divorced, which is somewhat of a tricky situation. They both remarried, her mom is still in the church. But since they were sealed together, well, they might be seeing each other after their time on earth is up. At least according to some theories. But to get back on topic, in our faith, if you are doing something wrong, you do not have to go to confession, but you do have to confess in prayer. You also have to forsake your sin to be forgiven. So lets say you are cheating on your wife, and you haven't been caught. You intend to continue cheating. If you are a Catholic, you go, confess, say your prayers, and you are pure until you actually cheat again. For a Mormon, if you confess, but a part of you still is thinking about doing it again, you are not forgiven. You have to really intend on giving up the sin.

[MedicCook]

Thanks for the info.


But since they were sealed together, well, they might be seeing each other after their time on earth is up.

Now that is hell.

[Jimmerz]

i gotta tell ya.. id rather see them make a calander then molest kids.. lol... i was raised roman catholic but i dont practice.. my thoughts on the whole god thing vary from day to day most of the time lol.. but honestly if there is a god or being out there that has created us all and set us off to make more of ourselves.. dont ya think he/she or it would have some kind of sense of humor? i think so.. and in closing id say more then like god is having a good chuckle over this and all the other funny shit us pewuny humans do.

[Thomas the Solitary]

You know I gotta say something about this. I'm just goofy that way. (Religion used to be a hot interest with me, btw)


It depends on what you do really. When I was a Roman Catholic, I never really did like confession. I never felt like I very well articulated what I wanted to say. It was all so scripted.


It wasn't all that scripted when I went, at least not on my side -- except for the parts that I choose to script. I used an old, old formula from the 1800's when I went. Would have even said the Confetior in Latin if I could have from memory. Anyway.

The Priest sounded exactly like he was reading from a script, but I know where he was coming from so I understand. I've only gone once, so my experience is very limited.



People ask me how I can stand to go for church for three hours, but it's really three unique hours, where you get to talk, and it's always something different every week. Probally 75% of the Catholic mass is the same every week.


Good grief. I'd not be able to handle that much church. I'm social phobic, though, so theres that.

I'd say probably about 95% of the Catholic Mass is the same, and scripted. That's part of the appeal to some people, the stability and continuity.



Though their churches are more ornate and better decorated, and while some of the Mormon hymns are growing on me, I think I still like the music better at Catholic mass.


I like all the music in all the Churches I've been too... well, some better than others. I like the older variety better, don't much like all that newer stuff that sounds like noise and is just too damn "sweet". Our Catholic Church over here in Sparta has a really, really nice pipe organ that we rock out to.



We don't have formal confession here. You can always talk to the Bishop, or other high ranking members, and in the cases where your misdeeds were public, you are going to have to speak to them, but confession is more of a personal thing.


Not to split hairs, but it's roughly the same (according to the literature, not necessarily the practice) in Catholicism.



Actually, I found out today that most excommunications are due to some sort of sexual misconduct. Like if a missionary has sex on their mission. But the most common is if someone cheats on their spouse. We have a church sponsored wedding cerimony called a sealing. In a traditional wedding, they say "Till death do us part" but the Mormons have a tradition where you can get permenantly bound to your wife and kids, even after death.


This is an error. I'm sorry, but it just plain is. Straight out of Jesus' mouth: Matthew 22:29-30

Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.

My wifes parents got sealed. And then they got divorced, which is somewhat of a tricky situation. They both remarried, her mom is still in the church. But since they were sealed together, well, they might be seeing each other after their time on earth is up. At least according to some theories. But to get back on topic, in our faith, if you are doing something wrong, you do not have to go to confession, but you do have to confess in prayer. You also have to forsake your sin to be forgiven. So lets say you are cheating on your wife, and you haven't been caught. You intend to continue cheating. If you are a Catholic, you go, confess, say your prayers, and you are pure until you actually cheat again. For a Mormon, if you confess, but a part of you still is thinking about doing it again, you are not forgiven. You have to really intend on giving up the sin.

It's exactly the same in Catholicism. It's not just the physical action, it's the thought. This is something else that came straight out of Jesus' mouth. Don't feel like looking it up, to paraphrase: "Truthfully I tell you, if you even think about harming your neighbor, it's the same as doing it."


So I guess it is a little more difficult to get forgiveness as a Mormon as compared to a Roman Catholic having to say a few Hail Mary's and the slate is clean.

Not quite that easy, if it's taken seriously.

Like this:

Ave Maria, gratia plena, dominus tecum.
Benedica tu in mulieribus, benidictus fructus ventris tui, Jesu.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei.
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
Nunc, et in hora mortis nostre,
Amen.

(my spelling may be just a touch off.)

[HLBiteME!]

You brought up some interesting points there. So interesting that I asked some people about them. Especially the quotation from Matthew. When I read that quote to one friend, he immediatly said "That is true, thats why we have to have the marriage performed on earth." And he seemed comfortable with that. Then the other day I was driving our elder missionaries to Albany and asked them about it. Interestingly enough, neither was familar with that quote. One of the elders read it over, and thought that it was referring to that specific situation that was being discussed in that chapter, which was one woman who had been married to several men. The other elder ripped off his name badge and went running screaming down the street.

I wasn't originally going to respond, but I occassionally listen to these mormon podcasts, and lately they have had a few about Mormon apologists, people who spend a great deal of time trying to find support for the scriptures and answer the critisisms the church faces. Personally, I think thats a bit much. I consider religion to be pretty personal, and not something you really need to justify. And personally, when I was a Catholic, I was still never a bible literalist. And I'm not now either. For me, being a Mormon is more about a lifestyle than anything else. It's brought me together with others who have similar interests, and I think it will be a good church to bring up a family with. One of my favorite bible quotes is actually from that same section of Matthew, where Jesus is asked what is the great law of Heaven, and reponds that you must love God, and love your neighbor. And I think that's probally the most true statement out there. I think no matter what religion you are in, if you follow those two guidelines as best as you can, you are going to be ok. Obviously some people think that religion is the most important thing in their life, and that they must save everybody, but I think it can go to far. Some of the kids I teach in Sunday school went out to the pagent in western new york the last few weekends, and I guess anti-mormon protestors are attracted to such events, and going into town they saw several anti-mormon signage. And I guess people were screaming at them as they walked from their cars to the event. I just don't see how that is going to convince anyone to leave the LDS church, and join the church of these people who are yelling at them and berating them. In some cases over the past few years, people have had stuff thrown at them, been sworn at, even assaulted. I don't want to say that people shouldn't take their religion that seriously, because if you really really believe in it, you do take it that seriously. But I think as long as you are following those basic guidelines, you are going to be ok.

Anyway, back on point, this one podcast referenced a website called FAIRmormon, that researches a lot of the critisism about mormonism, and here's what they came up with about that quote.

"Jesus and "neither marry nor given in marriage"
Matt. 22:23-30 (or its scriptural counterparts, Mark 12:18-25 and Luke 20:27-36) is often used by critics to argue against the LDS doctrine of eternal marriage. The Sadducees, who didn't even believe in the afterlife, deliberately tried to trip up Jesus by asking which of seven husbands a woman, who outlived them all, would belong to. The wording is almost identical in all three versions. Jesus answers:

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:29-30)
We must appreciate three things in order to address the critics' objections:

The Restored Gospel is not "biblicist" in nature, meaning we believe that the word of God is not subject to individual interpretation, but is that which proceeds from the mouth of a living prophet.
The Sadducees tried to set Jesus up with a hypothetical, self-contradictory question.
The original Greek in which the Gospels were written does not support the critics' claim that there will be no marriage in heaven"
http://en.fairmormon.org/Marriage_not_needed_for_exaltation

[Thomas the Solitary]

The other elder ripped off his name badge and went running screaming down the street.

:rotflmao: you just made my day :) I haven't lauged that hard in, well, at least a couple of days anyway.



I wasn't originally going to respond, but I occassionally listen to these mormon podcasts, and lately they have had a few about Mormon apologists, people who spend a great deal of time trying to find support for the scriptures and answer the critisisms the church faces.


Yeah, I used to do a lot of that with Catholicism.



Personally, I think thats a bit much. I consider religion to be pretty personal, and not something you really need to justify. And personally, when I was a Catholic, I was still never a bible literalist. And I'm not now either.


Catholicism is definitely NOT literal in the bible area :) That's one of the greatest reasons I went that way in the first place. I didn't have to dumb myself down and try to believe that God created the earth like that 6006 BC or so when Science clearly shows different.

(of course, that's sort of a more modern liberal Catholic stance. The older ones will rip your balls off for thinking like that.)




For me, being a Mormon is more about a lifestyle than anything else. It's brought me together with others who have similar interests, and I think it will be a good church to bring up a family with. One of my favorite bible quotes is actually from that same section of Matthew, where Jesus is asked what is the great law of Heaven, and reponds that you must love God, and love your neighbor.


I know that quote. It's actually a Hebrew creed. You know, like in the Catholic Mass everyone says the Nicene Creed? The Hebrew worship ceremony at the time used that particular creed. Jesus used it there to sort of "stick it to them" if that makes sense.

I love how he does that. All those guys following him around to watch if he violates the Sabbath... and then he does... by performing a miraculous healing :giggles:

Also: yeah, I like how the Mormons do some things, but I can't stomach some of the other things. (like the Book of Mormon, for starters.)




And I think that's probally the most true statement out there. I think no matter what religion you are in, if you follow those two guidelines as best as you can, you are going to be ok. Obviously some people think that religion is the most important thing in their life, and that they must save everybody, but I think it can go to far. Some of the kids I teach in Sunday school went out to the pagent in western new york the last few weekends, and I guess anti-mormon protestors are attracted to such events, and going into town they saw several anti-mormon signage. And I guess people were screaming at them as they walked from their cars to the event. I just don't see how that is going to convince anyone to leave the LDS church, and join the church of these people who are yelling at them and berating them. In some cases over the past few years, people have had stuff thrown at them, been sworn at, even assaulted. I don't want to say that people shouldn't take their religion that seriously, because if you really really believe in it, you do take it that seriously. But I think as long as you are following those basic guidelines, you are going to be ok.


That kind of behaivor is just wrong. I'll post an article that illustrates my point. It has some profanity in it, but it is a really, really, REALLY good article. It has profanity because it's talking to people that won't listen to the normal kind of bible thumpers. They'll turn off all dialog right quick... but you couch it in some humor and dirty jokes and they'll listen to you.



Anyway, back on point, this one podcast referenced a website called FAIRmormon, that researches a lot of the critisism about mormonism, and here's what they came up with about that quote.

"Jesus and "neither marry nor given in marriage"
Matt. 22:23-30 (or its scriptural counterparts, Mark 12:18-25 and Luke 20:27-36) is often used by critics to argue against the LDS doctrine of eternal marriage. The Sadducees, who didn't even believe in the afterlife, deliberately tried to trip up Jesus by asking which of seven husbands a woman, who outlived them all, would belong to. The wording is almost identical in all three versions. Jesus answers:

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:29-30)
We must appreciate three things in order to address the critics' objections:

The Restored Gospel is not "biblicist" in nature, meaning we believe that the word of God is not subject to individual interpretation, but is that which proceeds from the mouth of a living prophet.
The Sadducees tried to set Jesus up with a hypothetical, self-contradictory question.
The original Greek in which the Gospels were written does not support the critics' claim that there will be no marriage in heaven"
http://en.fairmormon.org/Marriage_not_needed_for_exaltation

I'm currently leaning towards the idea that there is no heaven, to tell you the truth.

The problem with "going back to the original greek" is that... we don't have the original. Add to that the obvious differences in the gospels... even the Synoptic ones (the first three) and, well... <sigh> you just can't trust the Bible. But I don't expect you to think that way, and it's kind of hard for me to think that way, but after doing plenty of study, even under a real Catholic neo-orthodox professor that used to be a Benedictine Monk, it's pretty hard to take anything seriously.

Eh, there's a reason I switched gears away from Religion. We're starting to hit it right now :)

[Thomas the Solitary]

I can't help it.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/holiday/thongheader.gif (http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist/429363)

Miley Cyrus will buy a million of these things, I'll betcha.

[HLBiteME!]

lol